K:
It's so great to speak with you again Okechukwu. I hope you're well. As you may remember I'm founder of PRIM, which runs a monthly book club called OKHA. Our March read is your new book Here Again Now, which I'm really excited about and grateful for you taking the time to do this interview so we can get to know more about you and this amazing book! First of all, congratulations and thank you taking the time to ensure queer Black people are being seen.

ON:
That's so nice, thank you so much. Honestly, that means so much to me. Thank you.

K:
My first question is, what made you want to write this story?


ON:
I got this idea because I was raised Christian, raised Church of England and I'm not religious anymore, but I was. The book of Ruth from the Old Testament,  I find really interesting - it's the story of two women Ruth and Naomi, who live together  and they help each other survive. It’s wonderful to have a story long before our ideas of chosen family, these two womenhelp each other survive when they didn't necessarily need to. And I thought, could it be about men? Can masculinity access that kind of intimacy?  And thinking especially about queer children of non queer parents, we need that kind of intimacy and love and acceptance. That's how it came about.


K:
I think that's absolutely beautiful and what I really love about storytelling is that it is always inspired by something.  So, how long has this story been waiting to be told?


ON:
Probably six years now I've been thinking about it. And then I actually started writing it. 2019 and finished it last year, yeah.


K:
6 years you've actually been cultivating this story. Talk to us about the actual characters, in particular Achike, Ekenne and Chibuike. I feel like you go to really great lengths, to give each character a really clear personality, tone of voice and a manner. What did you want for us to take from their personalities and connections?


ON:
Oh, that's such a good question. This I could talk about this for hours. Gosh, what do I even start with...

You're right, you can never really control how people are going to read it, which I think can be one of the scary things, but also one of the exciting things about a book. I guess to start with Achike, I really wanted people to take away the fact that this is somebody who has like, been through some really dark things, and who has spent years of his life where he should have been protected and looked after and cherished. For much of his life he was pushed around, abused and neglected. And I wanted to get across the fact that there's a nobility to him that has really survived all that. There's an element of him that is so pure hearted despite everything that's happened to him, but also, he's really confused. I was trying to be realistic about the things that happen to queer people, especially queer people of colour - so often we are bottom of the pile when it come to help and support. And I wanted to get across the realism of that. But also I wanted to try and present something hopeful as well, I think that it's so difficult, you know, writing a query novel, because you, you have to kind of bear those two things in mind. You don't want to be naive or dishonest.

But you also are aware, especially if, like me, I, you know, I'm queer. I've been through a lot of the stuff that queer people of colour go through. And I wanted to be honest about that. But I also think, we need something to uplift us, and a kind of a suggestion or promise of something better, like, the relationships with these characters. For me, it was about in partly, in part, it was about kind of say, Okay, I know that bad things happen. But what if something really wonderful happened as well, you know, like, for Chibuike, this man who's done a lot of terrible things as a dad and as a husband. And, you know, he's got a lot of stuff to apologise for, and he's responsible for some really bad things. But also what if somebody like that could make that journey towards being a better person, and towards being a better parent? And what if actually, underneath all of that mess that he's living with, and carrying around? What if there's somebody underneath that, who desperately actually wants to, to be better?

I think we can probably all think of people like Chibuike who are, you know, maybe not as extreme, but people who have made mistakes, and who are kind of these emotionally inaccessible people and who struggle a lot with being a better version of themselves and being what they need. And I thought, it'd be nice if just once somebody like that change for the better and really wanted to, and I think that's, I think that's possible. I think that's true. You know, I think that I think a lot of the time, when I think of men like that, I think, okay, but what's underneath that, because I know that you're more complicated than the shell, that you have around yourself.

K:
That's just really beautiful for you to think, to hope for that. I mean, what I'm feeling, in that is like a huge sense of forgiveness, and that is almost like what exists in anyone who is struggling with anything. The key part of that is being able to forgive yourself and move on, and just do better. And if you can do that for yourself, and the people around you, can help foster that with you, and believe that that is possible, then you can actually have someone who made me for 10, 20, 40 years of their life was an absolute sham. Could come around and spend the next 40, 50 years of their life being an incredible asset to themselves and to their family. And that's not impossible. You know that's really amazing. I love that. But I think that is a really beautiful thing, I really do get a sense of that. And that that idea of there being the possibility of repair and rejuvenation, and forgiveness, just transformation. You know, and it transforms also the culture that these characters sit in. A few too many Nigerian men are not accepting of queerness. But in your story you see that possibility of real acceptance because Chibuike is very hopeful, he wants his son Achike to be more open and honest with him.


ON:
Exactly, and really, what parent doesn't want to have a loving relationship with their child, like, even if you've got other things going on, and there's other factors going on. And you know, maybe your cultural heritage or the way you were raised has taught you to be certain things. Who doesn't also want to have a good relationship with their own child? Like, I just think, however much else gets in the way. Surely, there's something underneath that as well. And it doesn't always lead you know, can't always be repaired and end happily, and you know, there was tragic stuff going on every single day, but I just wanted to get underneath all of that stuff again. What is the person underneath that and how much can you pull that person out of it and move them on.

K:
Amazing. What about Ekenne? What would you say is, I guess the key for you and in his car that he is a strange one is probably my favorite character. I won't lie.

ON: Hmm so interesting. Why's he your favourite?


K:
I just feel like I think it's the exchange in the very beginning when they were kids. And he just had this overwhelming sense of wanting to be close to this person, wanting to be close to Achike, but also finding him very weird. Also the fact that he knows where he loves, but doesn't want to say why - like ok stalker. But also the tenderness that exists with him. He's very descriptive in how he describes the beauty in this man, but also he does some really weird things. He just feels like a very recognisable character to me. So I think it's more that.


ON:
That is so nice to hear that about Ekenne. I love all these characters. But I feel there's something so special about Ekenne because he, like I talked about Achike as this person who has been through some awful stuff. And has still got this kind of very pure heart. But Ekenne also has a kind of purity to him as well, like the big part of the reason that they have never got together properly is because Ekenne refuses to accept any kind of polluted version of love. Like, whenever Achike tells him that he loves him, he's like, no, I can see through that and what you're talking about. That's, that's not love. That's something else. That's not what I need. And you know, he's messy, and he makes mistakes. And he's confused. And he can be kind of selfish, but, but there is also something kind of pure about him in a different way from how there is with Achike. And I think that's probably what brings them together as well as what pushes them apart. And I also just wanted to give somebody, you know, when I was thinking about the fact that Ekenne and Chibuike, are going to get closer in this book, and they're going to be it the book is very largely about their relationship and how that sort of evolves. I thought, Who do I give that to in this story, you know, Ekenne is not the perfect victim. He's not always a very sympathetic person, he can be selfish and thoughtless, but also he's a human being, and he's capable of love. And he can be really tender and attentive and thoughtful, I thought, if this is going to be a story about a queer person getting healing and love and recognition, then I want to give it to him as well, I want to testify to the fact that that is a possible thing. And that that is a fair and necessary thing that you don't have to fit a certain profile to be worthy of love, and redemption.

K:
Again, really beautiful. Thank you, for all of these characters, because I really enjoyed how they all really exists individually. And so the idea of conencting, really comes through. Is there anything that you would have liked to explore more in their stories? Do you feel like the end as far as the narrative could have gone? Or is there possible for a sequel to this? That's just me being a nosey parker.

ON:
So that's interesting, because I've never, I hadn't envisioned a sequel. And but I guess, I mean, I guess there's always something more, whenever I read a book that I really love, I often like like to think of what the characters are doing after the end of the novel. I don't know with this one. I feel like I'm happy with how I tied the story up. But I think without spoiling it, the two characters whose story takes up the second half of the novel, I think it'd be really interesting maybe to do a short story sometime about their lives together. And what that looks like. And, you know, there's so many kinds of characters in the background. Like Achike's mother, who's very shadowy picture.

K: I was just about to say that, like, I want to know more about this Mum, because, like, what's going on. On the one hand she's really mean, but like, was she pressured?

ON:
Fully, and I'm so glad you picked up on that because yeah, this is the thing. Like, again, she's not the perfect victim. She's somebody who has been pressured. Patriarchy has really messed her around and kind of you know, pushed her into life that she never wanted and shouldn't have had to have. And I wanted to make the point that patriarchy hurts men. But I also wanted to make the point that it hurts women of course, it's bad for all of us. As much as Ndidi, Achike's mother, can be quite cold and perverse in some ways, I think, and neglectful. She's also, she is also a victim, like she's also there's something innocent about her, I think that's really important to me. She never asked to be messed around in this way. She never asked to have her life choices sort of forced in this way. She didn't want to be a mother. And I think that's a completely valid thing. All trouble comes out of the fact that she was forced into that.

K:
A part of motherhood that is quite overlooked. There is a privilege in being able to really have that be a choice. Not just because you're making conscious choices, but because you're not in an environment that is pressuring you, or creating an impossible space to live in, and exist in because you don't have children or because you don't have a husband or whatever else it may be. And that is something to be spoken about. Understanding her story completely changed my initial my thoughts of her. It reminded me as well, why hearing everyone's story is so important. And I think that's another credit to why this book is so so great, because it actually goes in depth into each facet, like every element that contributes to Achike's existence. And his father's existence, and also by extension Ekenne. Moving to my next question - can you tell me about the title Here Again Now. What's the significance of that? What is that title trying to say? Is it to someone? What is it about?

ON:
So this is a really interesting journey for me. So up until about a few months before I submitted this to Sharmaine, my publisher, it had a different title. I was happy with that title. Then another book, I saw another book come out with the exact same title. But it's a very different book. But I thought, no, I want it to be mine. And what was so interesting was as it kind of forced me to think about a different title, which I'm happier with now. I'm happy with this one, I don't know why, but I settled on the fact that I wanted it to be three words, I was like, this needs to be. I don't know why, but I just thought this has to be three words and three words that didn't necessarily make a sentence or a phrase - it just, it just felt right. And I kind of tried lots of different ones and this is the one that just felt right, to me it encompasses the idea of reincarnation, which is important to the story, and which is kind of like implicitly throughout the novel. And it fit for the film which Achike is in.

K:
I love that idea of just being redirected to the true title of the book. And it also leading you to something that actually makes more sense not just for the narrative and the narratives within the narrative, but also for you. Which is really great. I personally like the title. I think for me, it makes me it does make me think of like this idea that within life we are consistently kind of almost in the cyclical environment. And even within that cycle, you're sort of breaking the cycle but also creating a new, better cycle. So, final question, we love to ask this question just because we think it means something different for everyone. But what does storytelling mean to you? And why did you choose writing a teaching? Or was it more that those mediums choose you?

ON:
That's such a good question. Storytelling to me means companionship and communication. I think that, I guess, looking at the novels that I've written, communication and how difficult that is, are at the center of probably both of those narratives. And I think I'm trying to communicate, I guess, with readers and provide them a kind of companionship, like Zadie Smith wrote this really great essay about why she reads and one of the things she said is that when she was younger, she was kind of reading to like tear texts apart and analyse them, break them down and sort of think of them in a more straightforwardly academic way. Now she's older, she writes about how she reads to feel less alone in the world. And something about that just really struck me, I think that's true. And that's what I do. And you know, you just want to know that other people. You want to know how other people live and maybe you also want to know that other people have experienced things like you. And I want to provide that for people, especially with this book that's about queer experiences that don't often get limelight. And yeah, and I think that that's a really interesting question about whether writing and teaching chose me or the other way around. I think it's a bit of both. I just always liked writing like, and really I do mean, always, like, when I was little and learning to like, literally write letters and sentences and words, like I just thought, I honestly just thought that that's what you did. That telling stories was next, that was what it was for. I guess it was a bit of both. I feel really lucky to have that. And to be able to do this. And I feel really, yeah, I'm blessed to be able to, like, tell stories and talk about them with people. Yeah, and this really means a lot to me, like, I wrote this book. You know, I wrote this book for everybody. But I wrote this book for black queer people, and so to talk to somebody who read it and read it so thoughtfully. It means the world to me, so thank you.

K:
I feel absolutely championed through your eyes, through your words. So thank you so much thing he for, for, for literally putting, I guess our feelings, our thoughts, our hopes, our dreams into words, because that in itself is I found it to be such an incredible art form. And so yeah, super grateful for this opportunity to speak with you again. It's been a really lovely one. They're actually in person. At this point, we're going to run and hug each other.

ON: Thank you. I'm really appreciative as well.